Episode 14: Sarah Sense

This episode of Not Invisible: Native Peoples on the Frontlines features a conversation with artist and activist, Sarah Sense.  LeAndra and Sarah discuss Sarah's international project, Weaving the Americas a Search for Native Art in the Western Hemisphere, her journey as an artist from childhood through motherhood, and her latest work on decolonizing maps.

Learn more about Sarah and check out her work at sarasense.com

Visit our webpage for a transcript of this episode.

Transcript

Sarah Sense 
Maps are made by military for war, it's warfare. I just wanted to take those months, slice them up, open them up and weave Indigeneity back into it. I feel like myself and the actual weaving, there's no separation. It's all connected.

LeAndra Nephin
That was artist and activist Sara sense. On this episode of not invisible native peoples on the front lines. Sarah joins us on our virtual couch to discuss her works as an artist and how her heritage has shaped her creative journey. Thank you for joining us, I'm your host Leandra Nephin. Welcome to a new episode of Not Invisible Native Peoples on the Frontlines. Joining us today is artist and activist Sarah Sense we will be discussing Sarah's journey as an artist and art as activism. Sarah creates photo weavings with traditional Chitimacha and Choctaw techniques. She received a Bachelor of Fine Arts from California State University at Chico in 2003. And a Masters of Fine Arts from Parsons The New School for Design in New York in 2005. Sara was the curator and director of the American Indian community house gallery in 2005 to 2007 and catalog the galleries history. This inspired her search for Indigenous international art leading to life abroad when she moved to South America in 2010. To research her first international project, weaving the Americas a search for native art in the Western Hemisphere, a project which included over 60 interviews with Indigenous artists from 12 countries debuting in Bolivia, Chile in 2011. Weaving water explores Indigenous art in the Caribbean and Southeast Asia debuting in Bristol, England in 2013. While residing in Ireland, Sarah made grandmother's stories in 2015, a collaboration with her Choctaw grandmother and the history of the Choctaw making a significant financial gift to the Irish during the famine, after suffering the Trail of Tears. Remember, in 2016 is inspired by motherhood Irish landscapes in German family archives to reveal the complexities of forced and voluntary migration between Europe and the Americas. Her current work revisits the Chitimacha landscape with Cyprus in 2017. And again, in cowgirls and Indian princesses in 2018, which entangles a 15 year image collection of Hollywood posters, personas, and childhood family photos with guns. Current research is on native North American histories in England, which will be explored with her first permanent installation in Plymouth, England. Sarah, so great to have you on our show today on our virtual couch. So for our viewers who are listening, I wondered if you could just talk us through a little bit about the work that you do, what you're currently up to, and how things are going for you in sunny California.

Sarah Sense
Thank you so much for having me, LeAndra. I'm just really grateful to be a part of this conversation. And as you know, I've just been on a really wild tour down in the south of Texas and Louisiana. And when you were talking about the cow girl and Indian princess body of work that I finished in 2018, I felt like I was living that out in Texas and Louisiana. And I guess that's sort of where my mindset is right now. So that's where I'm at my citta macho reservation and community is in Sherrington, Louisiana, which is about 70 miles west of New Orleans. And that's where my maternal grandfather is from, and my paternal grandmother is from Beaumont, Texas, which is not too far away from Sherrington. So in this trip, I was able to go back to the homelands of the citta matcha. And my grandfather's old stomping grounds as well as where my grandma Rita's from. So it's been quite a journey of exploring like family histories and introducing these different landscapes to my kid and for my husband and I we've never even been to Texas before and particularly Fort Worth, which was very cowboy. So yeah, happy to be here happy to share some of those experiences that I've had and and talk about my new research and my new body of work.

LeAndra Nephin
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, obviously, you and I know each other. We go back sort of what two or three years ago when we first met in England and Bristol when you were over living here because you spent a few years over in England. Living, haven't you? Is it been about was it about 10 years or eight years?

Sarah Sense
I moved to Bristol in 2013 when I met my husband there, and then we left in 2019. So it was six years in England and Ireland. And I had my first two boys there. Archie was born in Ireland. Hugo was born in England. And since moving back, we've had a third boy. And yeah, I met you Leandra while we were gathered together as indigenous and native women living in the UK. So that was like, a very pleasant surprise to meet you and to get to know you. And I'm always thrilled to get to talk with you.

LeAndra Nephin
Yeah, same same. I love kind of our conversations and, you know, to see your journey as well, because that every time I kind of follow you on social media as we do, we follow each other and to see that trip, even currently in the bayou, and reconnection. And, you know, some of the work that you've done. I mean, I really wondered a lot about kind of the work that you did down in, and Chile and the exhibition that you did there, and kind of the interviews that you did, I wondered if you could talk us through that a little bit and help our viewers kind of envision that I guess, through some of the work that you did. Sure.

Sarah Sense
I think it's relevant to say that while I was at the Community House in New York, because that native center was in Manhattan, and sort of had this like 30 year history. By the time I had gotten there, and quite remarkable history with American Indian Movement and the contemporary art that people like Sean quick to see Smith K walking stick Island Mickelson, Lorenzo Clayton, like they're these, like really important figures that were active in the early days of the gallery, and so many other artists, those are just a few that I have had the pleasure of working with and knowing and because this organization was in Manhattan, and had done so many important exhibitions, it drew people to come and visit when they were coming from Australia, parts of South America. And I was very young, when I had that job. I was right out of grad school at Parsons, and I was 25 years old. And so I think I was still on this like journey of knowing and learning and understanding what contemporary Native art was, or the larger window or idea of contemporary indigenous art. And I should say also, a lot of Canadians as well, because we were in New York, a lot of Canadians come through there, I just became really interested in what kind of art was being made around the world. And when I decided to sort of break away from working for institutions and organizations and doing my art on my own, I knew that I wanted to explore more about what Native communities were making. And for me, that was going to be in the Americas. And I really had to as much as I wanted to go all around the world, I actually made a kind of map for myself and a timeline that was like, Okay, first I'll do South America, and then we'll do Africa. And then we'll do Australia, like I was very, I got very ambitious about it. And first I had to learn Spanish. So I started taking Spanish classes, which led me to more Spanish and Costa Rica. And when I was in Costa Rica, I sort of resolved to do a journey by bus through Central and South America, thinking that that was the best way to find the indigenous communities and meet the artists and things. So it was really a journey of buses, taxis, boats, walking, sort of just sometimes making random phone calls to artists. And I think what I learned was that what I was looking for, which was something like super contemporary, like what Native artists were doing in Canada and the United States, it wasn't quite there yet. And that way, as prevalent as it is in North America. Instead, I was meeting with artists who were doing traditional art, and they're sometimes their own interpretation of their traditional art. And it was very much connected to the land and connected to the community. And so my journey on land was really about like meeting those people of the land and meeting and getting to know what their artistic practices were in relation to that landscape, whether it was a desert mountains, jungle water, it was a life changing journey for me, and I am just totally grateful for all the generous artists and native people that I met along the way.

LeAndra Nephin
Yeah, that actually sounds like an amazing journey, particularly at that time when you know you're young and able to kind of go and explore and in a sense, I guess, learn more about what's out in the rest of the world and kind of expand your worldview and your perspective. But I wondered if we could rewind it a little bit, because this is actually a question I've never really asked before that I kind of been always curious about. So when we think about kind of, you know, early life experiences, how did you initially get involved with wanting to do art and to want to be an artist? Was it something ever since you were a child, you thought, you know, this is what I want to do. And you were really great at art? Or how did that journey start?

Sarah Sense
I love this question. And I have to say, I'm giving this interview from my parents house in Northern California. And I'm actually packing up my old childhood boxes for the first time. So I'm just found my old typewriter that I didn't realize until today was given to me by my grandma chili, my Choctaw grandma, and I found some of the old letters that I typed in there. And just collections like lots of little collections from my I should say, going back to this like Texas, Louisiana trip my the cow girl and Indian princess is very much my grandma's like the cow girl is my grandma Rita from his from Beaumont and Galveston. And so I have all these cowboy and cowgirl things that she's given to me that kind of came out of the closet today that we were just rummaging through. And then the native stuff like coming from my grandma chili. So I think that has had an influence on me. And I didn't, I didn't really understand that influence on my identity until I was living in New York. And I started weaving and I kind of was playing out those two personas, the cowgirl the Indian, and the collections, like just what I found right now like the little like, all these little things like collected in boxes, I think, maybe first I was a collector and like, just like a maker always wanted to make little things. And I'm dyslexic, and I'm like, really quite dyslexic. And so one thing that I could always do well was drawing and make art. And my parents knew I was dyslexic. And I know, they were trying to help me the best way that they could, but I generally just felt like I was really stupid, because I couldn't read properly. And so I just sort of excelled in art, because it was something that I could do. So yeah, I guess I've been an artist since I was really young, like an artist and a collector. And in a way like an explorer of that identity, the cowgirl and the Indian and being extremely close to both of my grandma's and loving them both so much. And so admiring them for who they were not choosing one or the other, you know, not being like, Oh, I definitely like identify with my native grandma more, or my bore with my Texas grandma who's also had an antique store. So there's all these, you know, they were both collectors in their own right. And I I kind of became a little bit of both of them, I suppose.

LeAndra Nephin
Yeah.  And I guess does that kind of permeate your art, then in terms of carrying those two identities into your artwork?

Sarah Sense
Yeah, I think for me, when I'm making things that have to do with identity, I always want to challenge myself in the beginning of creating something about like the sincerity and the honesty of what it is that I'm making. Eventually, in the making process, it goes beyond that. And it it becomes something different, where as you're making, you're not so concerned about concepts as much as it is about just like actual making process. I think artists might understand that what that means. But in the early parts when I'm conceptually like, identifying purpose and reason, and what it is that I'm making and who the audience is, I'm trying to very honestly sort through in my own mind, why is it that I want to make this why am I weaving this thing? And what is it that I'm weaving? And why am I looking at these maps and dealing with settler colonialism, for example, which is what I'm doing right now and by use. And I guess I I really tried to go through those heavier questions about mostly, I'd say about identity early on, so that when it comes to the fun part, I can just kind of like make it without having an anxiety attack.

LeAndra Nephin
Yeah, I mean, so would you say then that when you are, I guess, doing the process of bringing all of your weaving and your your photographs and you're kind of making this conceptualization of this piece that you're going to do, what is your process? Exactly? How is it that you come to make these beautiful pieces of work, you know, work that you're doing?

Sarah Sense
It was Jacqueline said at the end of my talk, and I thought it was really relevant that the maps that I'm using right now She asked if it had to do with my travel, like with weaving the Americas, or weaving water and all the traveling that I've done. And it told like it totally does. So I think sometimes elements like that sneak into my work, and it's more like in the psyche, like it's a part of who I am, rather than, like a conscious decision, if that makes sense. Or maybe like a combination of the two, when Philip Abraham, who I think is a wonderful person, he's at the British Library. And he asked me if I would consider applying to do a fellowship, a visiting fellowship at the British Library. And I thought that that sounded like a wonderful idea to go into the archive. And I have to also mention, I'm really grateful to col Thresh for kind of like helping steer that in the beginning. And a lot of people have been so generous with their own research and their time with me. And I really rely a lot on scholars and historians and our cultural director, like I need, I sort of lean on people and I'm, I can't be all of those things, I can't be the scholar and the historian and the maker. So I don't want to wear all of those hats all of the time. I think that there are people out there that have so much more knowledge and all these, like particular, you know, parts of my exploration for these things that I'm creating. So I think it it's sometimes like really inspired by that by like other people's research and their work and where it intersects with things that I'm curious about. And then if like, I can work together with somebody in any way, like, for example, the Mississippi River, which is very much what I'm doing what I did for Florida State, so being able to because of Phil inviting me to apply for that British Library grant, and then Cole kind of steering me in a couple of different directions with that archive there. And then there's a scholar, and wonderful writer from the University of Mississippi, Caroline Wigington, who basically just introduced me to all kinds of literature and ideas about the Mississippi River, and invited me to Mississippi then. And so all of these little experiences, kind of steer my research and steer the ideas. And I think my passions for like, climate activism, and just constantly thinking, like, how can we get this information out there about like how climate has affected native communities on the Mississippi, for example, how colonizing the Mississippi River has affected so many people, particularly Native people, I think that all of these sort of like passions and details are what is driving the work. And then the physical, like visual elements would then be for, for me, and for that particular body of work that went to Florida State University is mops, primarily. And so with the settler colonial images that I chose to sort of like decolonize, if you will, were all maps from the British Library. And so the idea was that with kind of, like, with the help of those scholars and historians who gave me, you know, really did like kind of like fuel a lot of the ideas, my way of making like a visual landscape of those ideas that articulated my passions, about like climate change, and like, knowledge of settler like colonialism and effects on native peoples was through maps. And it was very heavily with map like very heavily 17 hundred's maps. So maps that were used for war, it's warfare. Maps are made by military for war. That's what it is. And I think that in those maps, in particular, British maps of native North America, or French maps of native North America, or Dutch or Spanish, or you know, whatever it may be those European maps, that was the warfare that was the way to understand where the native people lived, and how to move them manipulate them. And this I mean, the stories go on and on and on. So for me, I just wanted to take those months, slice them up, open them up, and we've, you know, weave Indigeneity back into it, weave native patterns back into it. And that's, that's the process like what I was talking about before. Once I get through all the conceptual stuff, the history, the social political business, and have the actual prints in my hand in my studio. The actions of like, cutting, slicing and relieving that like decolonizing and reasserting Indigeneity that's, that's like the beautiful part. That's the fun part with like, I feel like myself, and the actual weaving, there's no separation, it's all connected.

LeAndra Nephin
Wow. I mean, I'm just like, blown away, just to hear I mean, it's true. You know, I mean, this is the thing that people don't really think about is just how violent cartography was, or maps were and, and the power that they assert over Native peoples or indigenous populations. And you just described that beautifully in terms of your process of leaving indigeneity back into those colonial borders and and basically slicing up those borders and weaving it. What advice would you give to other artists who are up and coming I mean, particularly Native artists, who are up and coming and want to, you know, be be a professional artists and enter into that world? What advice would you give to them that you wish maybe perhaps you had when you were up and coming?

Sarah Sense
Oh, I do not wish anything more for myself, I feel like I was so blessed with the people that I met on my journey, you know, especially when I was in New York, because there's such a big native community in New York. And there was particularly a lot of women that were so supportive of me. And it was just really unexpected and wonderful. And without, without that support, I don't think I would have continued on the journey because it gets hard. And it's, it's hard to create, and make things, especially when your time making isn't paid time. And I think that's the hardest part is trying to get the bills paid for. And I didn't have my kids until way later in life. And that's the reason why, like I everything was about my art and trying to work for our institutions, while also making the work and showing the work, it was very, very busy. And I know, there's a lot of working moms out there that are still, like you do that that's busy, and then you become a mom, and then it's like, even more busy. So I would say just be really nice to everybody that you work with. And you're not always gonna know if somebody supports you, or really likes you or not. And I think that's the hard part is because if you want to be liked by everybody and supported by everybody, that's not going to happen, there's no way that that is ever going to happen. So just trying to be positive with yourself and with the people around you and, and stay grateful. And whatever that means to you. Like, I think for me my gratitude, the way I'm grateful to people has changed, especially since the pandemic, my gratitude, I think, to my toward my family, toward people who I work with, I just feel so much more sensitive to individuals right now. Because I think we've all gone through different difficulties. And maybe my difficulty that I've been through in the last two years isn't the same as yours, it doesn't mean that mine is any more relevant than yours. We've all gone through hardships. And so now I just feel like I have a different kind of respect for people that I'm working with. And I really want to practice showing more gratitude for that. Whereas maybe before like, when I was younger, it was just like so busy. I'm like, go go go and constantly going, and maybe I didn't take the time to stop and like have as much gratitude as maybe I should have had.

LeAndra Nephin
Yeah, absolutely. And I guess you know, from what I'm taking out of that as well, is this kind of, you know, almost growing into that role as a mother as a matriarch as an, you know, Explorer and collector and artist and who's making these really great pieces that are making statements, particularly, as you mentioned around climate change and the Mississippi River. But when we think about, I guess, what's next for you, in your world, and in your life? What are your hopes for the future?

Sarah Sense
You know, when I was at the library, and had weeks and weeks there looking at maps and taking photos and just it felt like it was never going to end and it just felt so amazing and fun and exciting. And it all ended really abruptly with COVID I think I had three or four trips to Europe just cancelled and it was totally heartbreaking because I had moved there. So it was like how do I stay in touch with these institutions in this country? programming. And it was programming that I was so bowled over by I couldn't believe that I was invited to like these different speaking events. And I can't even say what it is because it's nothing now it just disappeared. So I think what I'm left with is all of this work, this research that I did at the library. So before everything ended, I have a lot of writing and a lot of archives that I was able to photograph that I can use in my work. And it in some ways, it's 18 different stories that I was putting together. And again, I was kind of an all the scholars that I don't that I want to work with, I don't even all know that I want to work with them. But each story I'd like matched like a scholar or historian with and so I feel like I have a lot of work for like the next decade or so. Like if the Mississippi River project that I just did for Florida is one of those stories. And now the by use of Louisiana and Texas is another story. And for that second story, you know, it was going to the archive at Tulane and the archive at university, Texas Arlington and the archive at the Carter museum. I mean, this is no small feat for working mom, like it was me and my husband and my three small children had to travel and go there and then photographing the bias. That's what I mean that three week trip. It was long, and it was busy. And it was exhausting. You know, that's for one story. And then I'll have one year to create the piece. So there you go. So maybe I have 17 more years of just like hashing through my British Library Research, which was supposed to be something totally different. But that's us just like moving forward and being resilient with all these like little curveballs of COVID.

LeAndra Nephin
Yeah, absolutely. And it's nice to kind of, I guess, in a sense weave in that adaptability to everything that's changed, you know, COVID just sort of turned everything upside down. And when we think about how much has changed, but I suppose on the flip side of that is we've got some really great art to look forward to.

This has been not invisible native peoples on the front lines, a house on fire production. To learn more about Sarah and her artwork, be sure to check out her website Sarah sense.com. If you enjoy today's conversation, be sure to leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts and tell two friends about us. Have an idea for a guest send us a message on Instagram at Red House series. This episode was produced by spirit Buffalo and Ashley cinders Robinson. Our editor is Abby friends. The song for this episode is another side by wild whispers produced by Ben Reno, Eli love and Megan Lee. I'm your host Leandra nefyn Until next time, windy day we blow her